Interview with Bunker

In many cities, independent theatres find their home in abandoned post-industrial spaces. Ljubljana is no exception. The city’s Old Power Station houses a theatre venue where Bunker, a Slovenian non-governmental organization working in the field of performing arts, has been running its programme since 2004. In addition to producing and staging performance work, Bunker runs arts educational projects that foster dialogue between artists and the local community. The NGO organizes two important festivals: Mladi Levi and Drugajanje (roughly pronounced as ‘droo-gah-yah-ny’).

Karolina Bugajak: I’d like to start by asking about the beginnings of Bunker.

Mojca Jug: Bunker was established at the tail end of 1997. It was founded by Nevenka Koprivšek who, unfortunately, is no longer with us. The main reason behind the establishment of Bunker was Nevenka’s the idea to launch the Mladi Levi Festival, which happened in August 1998. Her decision to establish Bunker was also very personal: she had been the artistic director of Glej Theatre and she wanted to start something of her own. Bunker’s first activities were the holding of the festival as well as producing of shows and organizing tours of Betontanc, an artistic collective that first worked under the auspices of Glej but then decided to follow Nevenka.

KB: Do you think there was a need in Slovenia at the time for the creation of a new independent scene?

MJ: Absolutely. The 90s were a very vibrant era with many big festivals. However, emerging artists had no platform to showcase their talents. Nevenka thought Mladi Levi could help them. From its inception, the festival offered opportunities to young artists. Many people had their first show outside their home country here. I like to believe that quite a few European artists have a special appreciation for the festival because it gave them that first chance. The welcoming and forgiving atmosphere was also very important. People were allowed to make mistakes, they didn’t need to be ‘the best’. Meanwhile, interesting work was being done across Europe, new trends were emerging and people here wanted to see them. You could also feel from the audience that they were hungry for new forms, new trends, new people, smaller and fresh shows.

KB: Are you still committed to the idea of presenting new aesthetics and new forms?

MJ: They come to us naturally. We try not to impose anything. New forms emerge all the time as the world is changing — the politics, society and relationships are in flux. Artists respond and then we respond, as we’re part of the same environment. It happens organically, not through one specific curatorial formula.

KB: And what about Bunker’s second major activity, its Drugajanje Festival? What does Drugajanje mean to you in the context of the idea of cultural decentralization?

Tamara Bračič Vidmar: Drugajanje is the brainchild of the headmaster of a gymnasium (secondary school) in Maribor, Slovenia’s second largest city, who approached us after seeing the shows we produced and presented at the Mladi Levi Festival in Ljubljana. He invited us to bring such work to Maribor. That’s how Drugajanje began. Today, it is hosted across six Slovenian cities. In the early years, we were presenting pieces we produced at Bunker as well as selections from a range of Slovenian contemporary work. As the festival evolved, we started to programme international productions. We aim to bring high-quality Slovene and international performance to younger audiences, even though many of the shows we present were originally created for adults. To do this responsibly, we always try to provide some context: an introduction to contemporary performing arts, a lead-in and, whenever possible, post-show discussions, workshops or other activities. The festival has been and continues to be significant because audiences in the different partner cities often have limited access to contemporary arts.

KB: And what about presenting work in Ljubljana? Bunker didn’t have its own venue at first and then you got the Old Power Station. How did that influence your activities?

MJ: When we started working in the Old Power Station, it felt as if the community around us was asleep — it was a quiet neighbourhood where not much was happening. We wondered how the neighbourhood saw us and how we should engage with both the local and wider community. To put it simply, if a bit tritely, we wanted them to like us. I’m joking, of course, but we wanted people to understand that the Old Power Station belonged to them as well. It is a public space, open and available to everyone. I’m not sure how successful we were, but that was our intention. This mindset also influenced the programming of the Mladi Levi Festival. The shift in its curation was a direct result of our acquiring the venue.

Maja Vižin: We should perhaps point out that the building is not ours. It belongs to the power company, and the venue is rented by the Slovenian Ministry of Culture. We just run our programme there.

KB: Does this mean that the Ministry of Culture is supporting the independent theatre scene in Slovenia?

MV: Of course, but it’s never enough. Especially when it comes to finances. They issue two public calls: one for the Old Power Station as a venue and the other for funding the programme, producing work and running the festival. Is that enough? Well… it’s never enough.

KB: Do you apply for special funding for the independent scene, or do you compete with institutional theatres for funding?

TBV: The two are separated. There is special funding for public institutions and there is special funding for non-governmental organizations working in the field of culture. But it’s also divided into different strands of art: visual art, music, the performing arts. We are applying in the performing arts category. We always respond to the programme call, and if we get a grant, we have money guaranteed for four years. There’s also a biannual call and an annual call for projects. There is never enough money, of course, but the Ministry of Culture and the Ljubljana City do support us, and it’s a very important part of our income.

KB: Do you think that Slovenia’s independent theatre scene is already well-established or is it still waiting for recognition?

MJ: I’d like to be able to say that it has a strong position, but perhaps we are too immersed in it to see things clearly. Maybe we don’t see the full picture and we need to take a step back to realistically assess where we stand. Still, I like to believe that we are important and contribute to shaping the cultural and artistic landscape in Slovenia, and even Europe. Let’s allow ourselves that bit of confidence.

KB: Do you think there is a clear line between independent theatre and institutional theatre? When I came to Slovenia, I noticed a difference compared to Poland, where the distinction is sharper. In Slovenia, the two feel much more intermixed. Would you agree?

MV: In some aspects, yes. However, when I met the curator of Slovenia’s biggest national theatre festival a few years back, she said there was a clear division between the two in terms of aesthetics. When you see a show and look at the costumes, sets, text, sometimes even acting, you know if it was done by an institution or an NGO. So, in some people’s eyes, the division remains very distinct. But, especially in the field of performing arts, there is a great deal of collaboration between institutions and NGOs.

TBV: This is also because the Ministry actively supports such collaborations, you even score extra points if you work with an institution. Institutions themselves are not yet significantly rewarded for collaborating with NGOs, but I believe that will change. The aim is clearly to encourage more cooperation between the two sectors. Of course, the fields are still somewhat divided, but since many independent organizations don’t have their own spaces, they are, in a way, forced to collaborate with institutions. The independent scene does have venues like the Old Power Station and smaller ones such as Glej Theatre, Španski Borci and Dance Theatre Ljubljana, but there aren’t many other places dedicated to independent performing arts. There’s an urgent need for more spaces, because the Old Power Station is already overflowing with activity.

KB: So, you collaborate with institutions, but do you collaborate with and support each other within the scene?

TBV: We do and the Old Power Station is a great example of such collaboration, because in addition to our projects, it also hosts shows and festivals by numerous other NGOs and independent artists. Another example is Asociacija, an advocacy organization founded almost twenty years ago, which is an important pillar of collaboration in the NGO sector in the arts field. It serves as a kind of common ground for advocating better working conditions for artists and the cultural sector. And it extends beyond the field of performing arts, bringing together NGOs and self-employed cultural workers, enabling them to collectively advocate for improved working conditions.

MJ: Slovenia is small, Ljubljana is smaller and the independent scene is even smaller. For a while, it felt like we were seeing the same people everywhere. But now that’s changing and new people are joining.

TBV: We co-organize many activities together with other NGOs, most notably the Trigger Festival, a platform showcasing independent work for international guests. We also have a special subscription — we collaborate with other independent organizations offering cheaper tickets to our shows. We also co-organize post-show talks, attend each other’s events, and now we are experimenting with how to programme events and how to coordinate the programme of the Old Power Station. Bunker has been the coordinator for twenty years since 2004. Now, we are going to programme the next year together. Each of the five organizations will be allotted two months to develop its programme and its other activities at the Old Power Station, including other actors from the scene. We’re not closing the space, but opening it up to other players.

KB: Do you also get support from outside, from critics or researchers?

TBV: Yes, the Slovenian journalists and critics do attend our festivals and independent performances, but we cannot always get them to write about them. Usually, the media primarily covers the institutional productions and, as the space for culture in the media is diminishing, the independent culture is the one to get less attention. This applies to international critics as well. So, it’s a constant fight for space in the media. However, there are several platforms for sharing reviews of the independent scene. Bunker has established an online platform for critics called Aplavz.art, where they write about shows at the Old Power Station. There are other platforms as well, such as Neodvisni and Kritika. The latter, however, focuses mostly on institutional theatre. We invite international critics to attend the festivals and actively engage local critics and researchers, including students of dramaturgy at Ljubljana’s Academy of Theatre, Radio, Film and Television, who write research articles about the independent scene, and we also invite them to write festival reviews. We hold workshops for critics, which we fund through international projects. We actively look for ways to support critical discourse.

KB: Since you mentioned international projects — was it easy for Bunker to establish collaborations with foreign institutions and organizations?

MJ: It was very easy at the beginning. But it had to do with Nevenka’s personality. It was a very personal effort. Bunker, from its first to fifth year, was like a little child… she did everything for it. Nevenka already had some connections, she had lived in France for seven years and was an artist herself. Bunker’s first international presentations were all made possible through personal invitations from her friends in the performing arts field.

KB: And what about now?

TBV: Now we are very connected internationally. Getting funding from European projects is an important part of Bunker’s annual funding. So, we need to apply for European projects and step into collaborations. We have been running an international network for 15 years. It is called Balkan Express and brings together contemporary performing arts entities from Southeast Europe and from other regions interested in collaborating in and with the Balkans. We develop new collaborations based on these connections. Of course, maintaining these links can be challenging because travel is expensive. We have to travel to see shows for the festival, and attending major network meetings requires additional time and resources we don’t always have. Nevertheless, international collaborations remain an important part of Bunker’s identity.

MV: It’s also a necessity. We don’t want to be in our own local or national bubble.

KB: What distinguishes you from other institutional organizations and the dominant management model in institutions?

TBV: We work as a collective. We make decisions together, discuss programme lines, develop projects and generate ideas collaboratively. We are not hierarchically structured, which allows for diverse forms of collaboration with audiences, communities and neighbourhoods. Another aspect that sets us apart is our small size, which allows us to adapt quickly to situations as they arise. Our way of working also influences how we collaborate with artists. Our collective approach is most visible during the festival. The festival is very welcoming and inclusive, and our personal energies or the energy we generate together is noticeable. People enjoy coming because the festival feels friendly and open. We offer them food, spend time with them and prioritize creating a warm, inclusive atmosphere.

KB: And what about the topics of your shows? Are they different from those in institutional theatres?

Alma R. Selimović: I’ll give an example. One of the institutional theatres has just done a production with the theme of ecology and sustainability. After a long discussion about neoliberalism and patriarchy, institutions are now starting to think about sustainability. We had sustainability and ecology as a topic in 2008, almost two decades ago. This is only now being structurally addressed and funded. Back then, we did it without structural support.

KB: It’s common that independent scenes are ahead of the curve.

ARS: Yes, likewise with devised theatre. Bunker and some other NGOs were forerunners in this field, producing shows, making co-productions, running tours and masterclasses. Now the same thing is slowly starting to happen in the institutional theatre.

MV: I remember the first show outside the black box in an institutional theatre — it was revolutionary for some people. It was called site-specific work. Artists in the independent scene, in contrast, had to do that much earlier, because they didn’t have their own spaces. That’s when I realized that our realities were different. For us, having a black box is revolutionary.

ARS: Institutions in Slovenia are working really well and we collaborate with them. However, it is true that the NGO sector is more responsive to the needs of artists and audiences. In this respect, we are ahead. There are also supporting activities that are now really big in the arts field because this is how you get financing, so they are increasingly important. I mean cultural education, audience building, applying for EU funding, different production modes — NGOs pioneered all of these.

TBV: We don’t do it just for the sake of it. As we mentioned, EU funding is a necessary part of our income, we need to obtain it to be able to realize our programme and survive as an organization. This also applies to your previous question about the position of NGOs in relation to national institutions. Institutions are still far more recognized in society — we are all a part of the same cultural field bubble. And when you compare culture to other sectors, it is a very small bubble.

KB: You mentioned cultural education. Is it what you focus on now in Bunker?

TBV: It’s not the main thing. It’s one of our bigger supporting programmes. It’s very strong and will become even stronger. The core activity is still arts production: festivals, touring, international co-productions. We don’t do cultural education to replace the educational system. Everything we do is in service of arts production.

ARS: One strand of our work is staging festivals, for example Drugajanje, which we discussed earlier. We also work extensively with primary schools, aiming to bring different fields together. It’s not just about audience building in the sense of ‘selling’ art to young people. We develop programmes where students and artists interact in meaningful ways. For instance, we had a project in which artists and teachers conducted regular classes together, using art as a tool. Currently, we are developing a major project based on ten years of experience — three-day intensive programmes where town children come to the city to participate in immersive art experiences. It’s like a ‘deluxe plus arts-field trip’.

KB: As you are still adding new lines of work within your organization, I wonder whether you think that the situation of Bunker has improved since the 1990s?

MJ: I think both — it has both improved and worsened. We are much bigger than we were at the beginning, but we also have to work more than we did before.

ARS: Bunker’s situation is definitely better. I think the context is very different. The late 1990s and 2000s were marked by a feeling of imminent possibilities and optimism. Now it’s more about realism, struggle and a kind of disillusion, not necessarily in a bad way. In the 1990s, festivals were springing up and there was this feeling that everything was possible if we fought for it. Now, nobody really thinks everything is possible. We are not defeatist, but it is very challenging to survive, thrive and maintain projects or create them in a way that truly makes sense and responds to the world’s needs. In that sense, Bunker has definitely improved.

KB: I have just two last questions. What do you think is Bunker’s biggest achievement till now and what do you want to achieve in the future?

MJ: Survival is the greatest achievement.

ARS: We’ve grown over the years. Many of the people working here are well connected, it provides a living and we enjoy it as well. It is an achievement that, despite the always insufficient financial resources, we are able to support everyone working at Bunker. Over 28 years, many organizations and festivals have come and gone, but we are still here. We also reinvent ourselves with every festival, keeping it fresh, bringing in new energy and staying creative enough to continue doing work that remains engaging for all of us. As for the future — it would be a great legacy if Bunker could survive our generation, reinvent itself, stay active, alive, prolific in two, three, four decades, and continue in the original spirit: arts production, festivals, international collaboration, staying at the cutting edge, trying new things. That would be a big success. I hope that Bunker finds a meaningful place in whatever context arises.

TBV: I hope that the NGO scene becomes more recognized in society, allowing organizations to grow while maintaining their identity as independent and adaptable. All this with a bit more support, so we wouldn’t have to constantly worry about finances and could have greater freedom to explore new and interesting ideas, respond to the pulse of society and create space for important niche performance work. The goal would be then to preserve our identity as non-institutional organizations but with slightly more support to be able to thrive.